Marta Macho-Stadler, mathematician: “The first programmers were women; men considered it a lesser job.”

Both from the university pulpit and in outreach, she champions the role of women who, often in the shadow of their husbands and, in other cases, their bosses, have played a significant role in the advancement of numerous scientific fields. But, aside from these specific cases, Marta Macho-Stadler (Bilbao, 62) highlights the role that women mathematicians have played in the launch of programming and in the space race . "They did jobs that men considered menial, so in the end, the first to program or deal with calculations were women mathematicians."

Marta Macho, a professor of Mathematics for 39 years at the Faculty of Science and Technology at the University of the Basque Country (UPV/EHU) and a specialist in topography, as well as editor of the blog Mujeres con Ciencia (Women in Science) of the Chair of Scientific Culture, a work for which she has received several awards, reviews, in her "vindicative" book Matemáticas x Matemáticas (Catarata) , the important role that women have played in this discipline. We spoke with her about these women and her concern about the insecurity that many girls continue to feel when choosing science careers , something promoted by the very messages they receive from society.

Question: Why did you choose the case of these 20 women in particular?

Answer: I edit many biographies of women scientists, in general. And there are many profiles of women mathematicians who, although some are not major figures, are not known, not even in the field of mathematics. And I felt it was important to make them known. This book is vindictive in itself. Because, when we talk about mathematics, many people interpret it as men doing it, although many male mathematicians are not well-known to the general public. And, furthermore, when we talk about women scientists or mathematicians, the same people are always mentioned. Marie Curie and four or five other women, which makes it seem like they are the exception, when that is not the case, nor have they ever been. There have been many throughout history who have played a very relevant role in mathematics and science in general.

Q. Furthermore, since science is a deep, team effort, for a long time the women in these groups, whose work has often been essential to obtaining the final result, have barely been mentioned.

A. Exactly. It's important to know that there have been many more women in science than we think, and also that science isn't an activity exclusively performed by brilliant people who do brilliant things. Throughout scientific activity, there are many people who collaborate. Some become famous because they make particularly relevant discoveries, but many others have participated in the journey to that discovery, helping them along the way, without whom the results wouldn't have been achieved. And many of those people were women, and brilliant.

Q. There are also women who, more recently, have begun to receive recognition as mathematicians, such as the two who have received the Fields Medal and the Abel Prize .

A. Indeed, in the book I highlight the figures of five brilliant, exceptional women mathematicians, who have indeed received awards, but who are also sometimes unknown, even within their academic circles. I'm sure that if I go out into the hallway of my faculty and ask any of my classmates if they know how many medals women mathematicians have won, they probably wouldn't have a clue, much less who won them.

Q. Is there still a belief that men are actually more qualified for mathematics than women, or has it been outdated?

A. Mathematics is a discipline that already seems strange, difficult, and extremely complicated to many people. And, in fact, this makes those who continue to think that women aren't especially gifted for almost anything scientific believe that this is especially the case with mathematics. But in reality, what's required is, on the one hand, a passion for the subject or profession and the dedication of time to do it reasonably well, even if you're not brilliant, as can be the case with physics, journalism, or street sweeping. Not everyone is good at it. And, secondly, it's scientifically proven that the intellectual capacities of men and women are exactly the same ; it's not something that has to do with gender. The problem is that often, along the way, men are encouraged in one way and women in another. Although this is something generic in the field of science, it also happens with physics and chemistry.

Q. Is it more pronounced in any scientific field?

A: Yes, the more theoretical it is, the more it happens. That is to say, there are women enrolled in Physics, but it's a fact that the more theoretical the physics major, the fewer women there are. Because it's mistakenly believed that theoretical physics is more difficult and requires greater intellectual abilities than applied physics. And these absurd beliefs have greatly harmed women.

Q. It's also a common argument about taste , that women tend to like different disciplines than men. Is there any truth to this?

A. Tastes are shaped by society, and if, from a young age, girls are encouraged to discard certain options at home, on TV, or at school—or, to put it another way, to encourage boys to choose others—all the information they receive is slanted so that girls prefer biomedical products and boys prefer more technological things. And in the end, you end up believing that's the way it is and you feel insecure about considering a different option than usual.

Q. Is there any common thread among all these cases of female mathematicians working in someone's shadow?

A. That they have all contributed to the advancement of science without asking anything in return. And, very importantly, to the transmission of knowledge. For example, those I mention in the first chapter are women who have tried to make the science of mathematics known to many people, who had sufficient training to transmit it in a simple way. Because generating knowledge is very important, but knowledge that is generated and not transmitted is useless, and women have always been the greatest transmitters of knowledge, and, moreover, many women have done so throughout history. I think this is very important.

Q. For example, in what area?

A. For example, women calculators . They've helped advance astronomical knowledge, develop algorithms, but always in the background. Not by helping the great astronomers, but by helping their engineers, who were the ones who made the computers that achieved wonderful things. That's why the first programmers were women, not men. I mean, it's great to have a computer, but if you don't know how to make a good program, it's useless. These women calculators theoretically only did calculations, and they were very good at them, but the reality is that they were hired because men considered such work tedious and boring.

Q. After exploring these women's history, do you realize that there are stereotypes they suffered that still prevail?

A. Yes. Abilities are trained, like everything in life, and it's true that some people are more capable than others, but it has absolutely nothing to do with gender. Sometimes we don't think about the types of games we continue to encourage boys and girls to play. Boys play construction games, while girls play Barbies , which also instill an unrealistic physique, that this is how you have to be to be loved by your environment. And, furthermore, this trains the abilities of both, their spatial vision, their skills, their knowledge, their imagination, in different ways; it's not harmless.

Q. What, in summary, are the messages we need to change to end this discrimination in the world of mathematics?

A. On the one hand, we sometimes put things on a pedestal that don't have to be. Mathematics is difficult, it's true, but so is physics, and constitutional law, for example, seems to me to be difficult as well. In other words, when the widespread idea is established that something is very difficult and almost impossible to achieve, this makes certain groups feel incapable of pursuing it. And, regarding women, we need to change our mindset, stop being so protective of women, of girls, of adolescents, and let them fly, not incline them to anything, let them choose.

Mathematics has always been a fairly equal program, as evidenced by the enrollment and graduation rates. This is because it was considered that the only option in mathematics was teaching, which is why there were always many women. But the curious thing is that, over the last 10 years, official data on male and female enrollment in mathematics shows that this picture has completely changed. Now, there are more men (60%) than women (40%), and students who would previously have chosen engineering are now pursuing this program. Because since those years, companies have begun to demand mathematics graduates to form multidisciplinary teams due to technological developments, and they are well-placed in many fields. So, regardless of whether it is well or poorly paid, this phenomenon occurs when a discipline begins to gain success.